topic Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more? in Galaxy S24

Was the Uncompressed RAW feature been removed?

UltimaGaina — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 00:46:28 GMT

Can someone clarify why the Samsung S20 series (including S24U) stopped generating uncompressed RAW files sometime in Q1 2023?

In Pro mode, we now have JPEG compression in a DNG container. It is a 12-bit JPEG.

Expert RAW has the same JPEG compression (on 16 bits, probably because of HDR) for S22U and S23U, while on S24U it shows as "Unknown (52546)" compression. According to an article I found on Samsung India, it is said that this is a new JPEG XL compression.

Why not offer the option to get again (as we had before Q1 2023) truly uncompressed mosaiced RAW, which works with the Lightroom Denoise AI algorithm, instead of the current demosaiced compressed Linear RAW, which doesn't.

Re: Was the Uncompressed RAW feature been removed?

rawshooter — Sat, 11 May 2024 08:08:19 GMT

Because Pro Mode offers a real raw, and ExpertRAW is a heavily processed something that since the S22U always looked like a heavily compressed jpg in darker areas with color banding.

Edit: Wrong, I was unaware they messed up ProMode RAW in 2023.

Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

UltimaGaina — Sun, 04 Feb 2024 01:18:06 GMT

Unfortunately, since Q1 2023, the Pro mode started to generate RAW by embedding a JPEG-compressed photo in a DNG container. Just use an Exif viewer and check it for yourself. 🤨

Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

rawshooter — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 14:34:40 GMT

But still it behaves more like a raw file that the output of the so called ExpertRAW.

ProMode still gives me clean noise when raising the shadows, ExpertRAW just shows compression artifacts.

Re: Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

UltimaGaina — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 14:40:34 GMT

Of course. Expert RAW is anything but RAW. It looks like Expert RAW has now switched to JPEG XL compression for S24, instead of JPEG used by the previous phones. But with files of only 5-6MB or so (for 12Mpix), they obviously implemented that sub-par "visual lossless" compression, instead of true lossless. Why they don't offer a true uncompressed RAW options for those who don't have a storage capacity concern is beyond understanding.

Re: Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

rawshooter — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 15:45:20 GMT

DNG lossy compression is not a bad thing as such, as it usually does not result in any visual difference and can reach some great compression levels if the images are not too noisy (noise is detail that is preserved, and a lot of details means less compression).

In fact I use Lightroom to compress my ProMode dngs as this does not result in a loss of detail.

ExpertRAW showed the same issues before they forced us to use compressed files (it was an option on the S22u and S23U).

An uncompressed option will not solve anything, those files always looked bad.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GalaxyS22/comments/tpitko

ExpertRaw is a complete scam.

Removing real raw from ProMode is sad.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

UltimaGaina — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 15:20:46 GMT

Yes, I read that reddit post before.
Pro mode switched from uncompressed RAW to JPEG compressed DNGs sometime in Q1 2023, after the firmware upgrade which added that Expert RAW link inside the stock camera app. See below the exif for DNGs shot before and after than infamous update:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

rawshooter — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 15:31:02 GMT

And sadly no one cares. I wish I was friends with some big phone/photography influencer to pick up on that topic.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

UltimaGaina — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 15:36:13 GMT

The worst is that the switch away from uncompressed RAW was SILENT, undocumented. I left comments with some Youtubers, I even raised a ticket with Samsung last summer, after I noticed the switch. The Samsung technician I talked to ackowledged the problem, promised to bring it forward with the developers and even promised to come back to me with info about the solution.
Needless to say that nothing happened.

Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

rawshooter — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 15:44:05 GMT

This is not how a raw file should look like Samsung, what are you doing?

Source: https://community.adobe.com/t5/camera-raw-discussions/samsung-s24u-expertraw-looks-like-8bit-jpg/td-p/14396675

And yes having the ProMode dng compatible with Adobes de-noise option would be a dream.

Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

UltimaGaina — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 15:41:22 GMT

It's not 8bit JPEG it's 16bit JPEG XL, as documented by Samsung in this article. But is supercompressed, making RAW editing much more destructive than it could be.
https://r2.community.samsung.com/t5/CamCyclopedia/JPEG-XL-Image-Codec/ba-p/15356525

Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

rawshooter — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 15:59:37 GMT

Does not really matter if it still looks like 8 bit (Does not say it is, says it looks like)

Re: Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

UltimaGaina — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 16:06:31 GMT

Yes, it's very likely that the 16 bits are obtained by stacking several 8 bit JPEGs through the HDR algorithm. The intermediate HDR file can even be on 32bits and then compressed to 16 through JPEG XL.
So if the input was on 8 bits, the output will not be better, except for the extra dynamic range.

Garbage in, Garbage out.

Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

rawshooter — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 17:28:21 GMT

Just checked an old S22U dng file, it's also not compatible with Lightrooms de-noise.

Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

UltimaGaina — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 17:39:41 GMT

Yes, as I mentioned on my posts above, Samsung SILENTLY switched from uncompressed RAW, to JPEG compression for all S20 series, in Q1 2023.

Funny enough, my ~5 years old Samsung 10 5G is still able to generate uncompressed RAW compatible with Lighroom Denoise AI (while my shiny new S24U is not), because it never received that infamous firmware update.

If you go back to S22U DNGs shot in 2022, you will see that those DNGs were uncompressed and compatible with Lightroom Denoise AI.
One more time, pay attention to the difference between these 2 DNGs, shot with S22U late 2022 vs mid 2023:

Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

rawshooter — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 18:57:21 GMT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNT9gds-oaA

Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

UltimaGaina — Sun, 04 Feb 2024 01:20:10 GMT

Ha, ha! He is talking about me! I was the one leaving that comment in his previous clip.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

rawshooter — Sun, 04 Feb 2024 08:35:58 GMT

Which Exif Viewer do you use? I can't find those in Lightroom.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

UltimaGaina — Sun, 04 Feb 2024 12:54:07 GMT

Check Exif Viewer on Play Store. I am also using ExifToolGUI, when I'm transfering my files to my PC.

Re: Uncompressed RAW - no more?

rawshooter — Sun, 04 Feb 2024 20:59:06 GMT

Also my first dng from the S23U taken in February 2023 does not support it.